A week from now, Russia will be 108,842 sq. km. larger.
#1
Not including Crimea. 

LIVE UPDATES: DPR, LPR, Kherson & Zaporozhye to Hold Referendum on Joining Russia on September 23-27
https://sputniknews.com/20220920/kherson...97757.html

[Image: ryt.jpg]
Here's the bottom line. Ukraine is not a natural country. This is a map of Europe in 1914. All but the Western parts of Ukraine was always Russia. Like the former Romanian Foreig Minister said, Ukraine does not have natural or cultural borders of historical or demographic significance. Its lands should be divided. The collective West better hop on the bus and start divvying up Ukraine while it still can. Poland, Romania, Hungary, perhaps even Moldova can get in while the pie is sliced.
https://www.eutimes.net/2022/09/former-r...countries/
[Image: 1914-vs-modern-borders-Europe.png]
“Judge, if you saw what I saw, you would know why I can’t release them” - President Donald J. Trump to Andrew Napolitano, about the J.F.K. Files.
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#2
(09-20-2022, 09:39 AM)Treebeard Wrote: Not including Crimea. 

LIVE UPDATES: DPR, LPR, Kherson & Zaporozhye to Hold Referendum on Joining Russia on September 23-27
https://sputniknews.com/20220920/kherson...97757.html

[Image: ryt.jpg]
Here's the bottom line. Ukraine is not a natural country. This is a map of Europe in 1914. All but the Western parts of Ukraine was always Russia. Like the former Romanian Foreig Minister said, Ukraine does not have natural or cultural borders of historical or demographic significance. Its lands should be divided. The collective West better hop on the bus and start divvying up Ukraine while it still can. Poland, Romania, Hungary, perhaps even Moldova can get in while the pie is sliced.
https://www.eutimes.net/2022/09/former-r...countries/
[Image: 1914-vs-modern-borders-Europe.png]

Can't argue that most if not all of the eastern Oblasts (provinces) will choose to join Russia which IMO is in their best interest.

This statement from above is not true though;

Quote:All but the Western parts of Ukraine was always Russia.

I've posted about the evolution of the region known as Ukraine at great lengths with maps illustrating the readjusting of borders and who controlled them going back to the 10th century and the creation of the Kievan Rus over at the FSU and other earlier Russia threads.

From my research on the topic I discovered that;

 - Ukraine was never an Independent country until 1991*.

     * There is a bit of potential gray area in the above statement for the period between 1917-1922. In the waning years of WW I, Bolsheviks (Reds) declared and formed the Ukrainian S.S.R.. This was concurrent with and part of the larger Russian civil war and was fought by the same factions. (Red's, White's & Green's).

Was the Confederate States of the US Civil War an accepted independent nation for that period of time or just a region in dispute?

 - The region known as Ukraine was always part of another country, Russia, Poland, Lithuania & various Khanates largely associated with the Golden Horde (Tatars, Mongols, etc...) as the primaries with others having some periodic claims over more limited territory (Romania, Hungary & Germany).

 - Ukraine which translates to Border Land, began appearing on maps in about the 15th century to denote the region much like Hinterlands or such labels were used in other areas. In a modern sense it's like seeing Great Plains on a US map. This time frame was also more or less concurrent with the formation of Cossack settlements along the Dnieper River which became a semi-autonomous entity of the Cossack Hetamate formally called the Zaporizhian Host.

While this is considered by many as the nexus of a Ukrainian Identity, it is more of a designation of regional identity than ethnic composition as other such Cossack settlements existed in other areas of Russia, most notably along the Volga & Don rivers.

Much more with greater detail and maps that illustrate the evolution at the other threads.
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#3
Yep its gonna happen....

is it what Obama promised.....and Joe completed....

something very sinister has gone on here and we paid for the whole thing.....
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#4
(09-20-2022, 11:24 AM)=42 Wrote: This statement from above is not true though;

Quote:All but the Western parts of Ukraine was always Russia.

I've posted about the evolution of the region known as Ukraine at great lengths with maps illustrating the readjusting of borders and who controlled them going back to the 10th century and the creation of the Kievan Rus over at the FSU and other earlier Russia threads.

From my research on the topic I discovered that;

 - Ukraine was never an Independent country until 1991*.

     * There is a bit of potential gray area in the above statement for the period between 1917-1922. In the waning years of WW I, Bolsheviks (Reds) declared and formed the Ukrainian S.S.R.. This was concurrent with and part of the larger Russian civil war and was fought by the same factions. (Red's, White's & Green's).

Was the Confederate States of the US Civil War an accepted independent nation for that period of time or just a region in dispute?

 - The region known as Ukraine was always part of another country, Russia, Poland, Lithuania & various Khanates largely associated with the Golden Horde (Tatars, Mongols, etc...) as the primaries with others having some periodic claims over more limited territory (Romania, Hungary & Germany).

 - Ukraine which translates to Border Land, began appearing on maps in about the 15th century to denote the region much like Hinterlands or such labels were used in other areas. In a modern sense it's like seeing Great Plains on a US map. This time frame was also more or less concurrent with the formation of Cossack settlements along the Dnieper River which became a semi-autonomous entity of the Cossack Hetamate formally called the Zaporizhian Host.

While this is considered by many as the nexus of a Ukrainian Identity, it is more of a designation of regional identity than ethnic composition as other such Cossack settlements existed in other areas of Russia, most notably along the Volga & Don rivers.

Much more with greater detail and maps that illustrate the evolution at the other threads.

The Kiev Rus were Russian, not "Ukrainian". They are all Slavs, and The Kiev Rus predate the Muscovite Rus. My statement is true. Temporary adjustments on the lands from wars of the Russian Revolution are irrelevant because that entity was never a country or state, it was merely an area the Reds won by conquest as part of the greater goal to establish Bolshevik communism in all Russia. Later, when Krushchev was Secretary, he controversially re-drew many borders within the S.S.R.'s., but he always insisted not to draw conclusions from his actions other than to make a more effective U.S.S.R. What's happened today is that we're infected by a lot of agendas that have re-interpreted the events of the past to make them fit agendas and politicize them by re-presenting them to audiences in a slanted view which seeks to instill a desired result.. in this case, Ukrainian statehood. Most of the articles and summaries and even the city names and cultural history that you see online, if its written in English, and was posted especially after about 2013 is thoroughly different because the old spellings and articles have been scrubbed and replaced with pro-Ukrainian identity propaganda. Kiev Rus always were Russian. They were the belly from which Russia sprung. Eastern "Ukraine" was always part of other European entities. Ukrainian "S.S.R." only existed in the context of revolutionary communism. Cossacks were not a people, they were a horseback martial group and nomadic knights, all Christian but composed of various ethnicites, they have nothing at all to do with "Ukrainian" identity unless somebody wants you to think they do.
“Judge, if you saw what I saw, you would know why I can’t release them” - President Donald J. Trump to Andrew Napolitano, about the J.F.K. Files.
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#5
(09-21-2022, 06:50 AM)Treebeard Wrote:
(09-20-2022, 11:24 AM)=42 Wrote: This statement from above is not true though;

Quote:All but the Western parts of Ukraine was always Russia.

I've posted about the evolution of the region known as Ukraine at great lengths with maps illustrating the readjusting of borders and who controlled them going back to the 10th century and the creation of the Kievan Rus over at the FSU and other earlier Russia threads.

From my research on the topic I discovered that;

 - Ukraine was never an Independent country until 1991*.

     * There is a bit of potential gray area in the above statement for the period between 1917-1922. In the waning years of WW I, Bolsheviks (Reds) declared and formed the Ukrainian S.S.R.. This was concurrent with and part of the larger Russian civil war and was fought by the same factions. (Red's, White's & Green's).

Was the Confederate States of the US Civil War an accepted independent nation for that period of time or just a region in dispute?

 - The region known as Ukraine was always part of another country, Russia, Poland, Lithuania & various Khanates largely associated with the Golden Horde (Tatars, Mongols, etc...) as the primaries with others having some periodic claims over more limited territory (Romania, Hungary & Germany).

 - Ukraine which translates to Border Land, began appearing on maps in about the 15th century to denote the region much like Hinterlands or such labels were used in other areas. In a modern sense it's like seeing Great Plains on a US map. This time frame was also more or less concurrent with the formation of Cossack settlements along the Dnieper River which became a semi-autonomous entity of the Cossack Hetamate formally called the Zaporizhian Host.

While this is considered by many as the nexus of a Ukrainian Identity, it is more of a designation of regional identity than ethnic composition as other such Cossack settlements existed in other areas of Russia, most notably along the Volga & Don rivers.

Much more with greater detail and maps that illustrate the evolution at the other threads.

The Kiev Rus were Russian, not "Ukrainian". They are all Slavs, and The Kiev Rus predate the Muscovite Rus. My statement is true. Temporary adjustments on the lands from wars of the Russian Revolution are irrelevant because that entity was never a country or state, it was merely an area the Reds won by conquest as part of the greater goal to establish Bolshevik communism in all Russia. Later, when Krushchev was Secretary, he controversially re-drew many borders within the S.S.R.'s., but he always insisted not to draw conclusions from his actions other than to make a more effective U.S.S.R. What's happened today is that we're infected by a lot of agendas that have re-interpreted the events of the past to make them fit agendas and politicize them by re-presenting them to audiences in a slanted view which seeks to instill a desired result.. in this case, Ukrainian statehood. Most of the articles and summaries and even the city names and cultural history that you see online, if its written in English, and was posted especially after about 2013 is thoroughly different because the old spellings and articles have been scrubbed and replaced with pro-Ukrainian identity propaganda. Kiev Rus always were Russian. They were the belly from which Russia sprung. Eastern "Ukraine" was always part of other European entities. Ukrainian "S.S.R." only existed in the context of revolutionary communism. Cossacks were not a people, they were a horseback martial group and nomadic knights, all Christian but composed of various ethnicites, they have nothing at all to do with "Ukrainian" identity unless somebody wants you to think they do.

I never said that the Kievan Rus were Ukrainian or established Ukraine as a nation or identity. In fact, I did say that the word Ukraine first appeared as a geographical description about 500 years after the founding of the Kievan Rus.

I think we agree that Ukraine was never an independent nation until 1991. I included the * of 1917-1922 because some would make argument about that especially if I omitted mention of it.

I will disagree though that Ukraine was always Russia. As I said above, it was indeed Russia for periods of time, but it was also occupied, controlled, owned by other entities. 


[Image: Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_in_1619.PNG]

Cossacks are a bit more complicated, but in short they did in this and other cases, give up their nomadic ways to form settlements, forms of government and sought independence from the country they were squatting on which changed a few times.

Quote:The Zaporozhian Sich (Ukrainian: Запорозька Січ, Zaporozka Sich; also Ukrainian: Вольностi Вiйська Запорозького Низового, Volnosti Viiska Zaporozkoho NyzovohoFree lands of the Zaporozhian Host the Lower)[1] was a semi-autonomous polity and proto-state[2] of Cossacks that existed between the 16th to 18th centuries, including as an independent stratocratic state within the Cossack Hetmanate for over a hundred years,[3][4][5] centred around the region now home to the Kakhovka Reservoir and spanning the lower Dnieper river in Ukraine. In different periods the area came under the sovereignty of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Ottoman Empire, the Tsardom of Russia, and the Russian Empire.

In 1775, shortly after Russia annexed the territories ceded to it by the Ottoman Empire under the Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca (1774), Catherine the Great disbanded the Sich. She incorporated its territory into the Russian province of Novorossiya.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Sich

I an not drawing a conclusion as to whether the Cossacks were the beginning of a "Ukrainian" identity (what I said above is "many consider"), but I would point out that the century or so which they occupied at least portions of the geographic region known as Ukraine as a semi-autonomous entity was also about when the Russian & Ukrainian languages diverged. 

I can agree that since 1991 there has been an effort to scrub history to de-Russify and create an illusion of Ukrainian nation that never existed. Denying Cossack influence at least on sub regional level is part of that rewriting of history. To project a pure Slavic Bandera inspired vision of Ukraine is part of that, but as evidenced by Ukrainian Troops recently recreating a scene from the painting "Cossacks write a letter to Sultan", some still proudly embrace the Cossack influence on their heritage.

[Image: ey8i1agt8jk81.png]


[Image: 107804_1.jpg]
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#6
(09-21-2022, 08:53 AM)=42 Wrote: I never said that the Kievan Rus were Ukrainian or established Ukraine as a nation or identity. In fact, I did say that the word Ukraine first appeared as a geographical description about 500 years after the founding of the Kievan Rus.

I think we agree that Ukraine was never an independent nation until 1991. I included the * of 1917-1922 because some would make argument about that especially if I omitted mention of it.

I will disagree though that Ukraine was always Russia. As I said above, it was indeed Russia for periods of time, but it was also occupied, controlled, owned by other entities.

We agree on pretty much everything here. The misunderstanding arose when I wrote: "All but the Western parts of Ukraine was always Russia. Like the former Romanian Foreig Minister said, Ukraine does not have natural or cultural borders of historical or demographic significance. Its lands should be divided. The collective West better hop on the bus and start divvying up Ukraine while it still can. Poland, Romania, Hungary, perhaps even Moldova can get in while the pie is sliced."

I thought that the suggestion that the Western parts of Ukraine which were other entities until the Russian Revolution and WW I were evident on the map from 1914 but of course also much earlier. I figured that because I merely said Russia owned all BUT the Western parts, readers would understand I meant the Western parts were not Russian, and that the suggestion for these Eastern European nations to also lay historical claims and take parts of Ukraine as the Romanian FM suggested were apparent.

So it's just a miscommunication.
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#7
(09-21-2022, 09:12 AM)Treebeard Wrote:
(09-21-2022, 08:53 AM)=42 Wrote: I never said that the Kievan Rus were Ukrainian or established Ukraine as a nation or identity. In fact, I did say that the word Ukraine first appeared as a geographical description about 500 years after the founding of the Kievan Rus.

I think we agree that Ukraine was never an independent nation until 1991. I included the * of 1917-1922 because some would make argument about that especially if I omitted mention of it.

I will disagree though that Ukraine was always Russia. As I said above, it was indeed Russia for periods of time, but it was also occupied, controlled, owned by other entities.

We agree on pretty much everything here. The misunderstanding arose when I wrote: "All but the Western parts of Ukraine was always Russia. Like the former Romanian Foreig Minister said, Ukraine does not have natural or cultural borders of historical or demographic significance. Its lands should be divided. The collective West better hop on the bus and start divvying up Ukraine while it still can. Poland, Romania, Hungary, perhaps even Moldova can get in while the pie is sliced."

I thought that the suggestion that the Western parts of Ukraine which were other entities until the Russian Revolution and WW I were evident on the map from 1914 but of course also much earlier. I figured that because I merely said Russia owned all BUT the Western parts, readers would understand I meant the Western parts were not Russian, and that the suggestion for these Eastern European nations to also lay historical claims and take parts of Ukraine as the Romanian FM suggested were apparent.

So it's just a miscommunication.

I was surprised to hear rumblings from Poland about taking from Ukraine to reset borders back to some point in history considering that they have been the primary tip of the spear jumping off point in the region for NATO supplies & foreign mercenaries.

I feel sorry for the Ukrainian people as their government has ruined their chances to succeed as an Independent country for the first time in history.

Various degrees of Balkanization are now very likely and/or WW3.
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#8
(09-21-2022, 09:37 AM)=42 Wrote: I feel sorry for the Ukrainian people as their government has ruined their chances to succeed as an Independent country for the first time in history.

Various degrees of Balkanization are now very likely and/or WW3.

It's not their government. Their government was overthrown by the US in 2014.

Their rightful President-In-Exile actually filed a lawsuit to be reinstated.

On 30 December 2021 Yanukovych filed lawsuits against the Ukrainian parliament at the Kyiv District Administrative Court in a bid to overturn his removal of the constitutional powers as President of Ukraine.
(in Ukrainian) The scandalous UASK does not work - OPU, Ukrayinska Pravda (4 April 2022)

Google partial translate (video in full above)

Okruzhnyy administratyvnyy sud Kyyeva narazi ne pratsyuye. Dzherelo: Zastupnyk holovy OPU Andriy Smyrnov, yakyy vidpovidaye za sudy, v intervʺyu "Ukrayinsʹkiy pravdi", yake vyyshlo na YouTube Pryama mova: "YA ne mozhu bilʹshe poyasnyty, tomu shcho u nas voyennyy stan. Skazhemo tak: ye pevni orhanizatsiyni skladnoshchi dlya zapusku roboty tsʹoho sudu v korotkiy perspektyvi". Detali: UP pryamo zapytala, chy mozhe tsey sud vyznaty Viktora Yanukovycha "lehalʹnym prezydentom", adzhe v hrudni mynuloho roku vin podav pozovy do OASK proty VRU. Pryama mova: "Vnaslidok neperedbachuvanykh obstavyn Okruzhnyy administratyvnyy sud mista Kyyeva ne zmozhe ukhvalyty tse rishennya. OASK ne pratsyuye". Shcho pereduvalo: 30 hrudnya mynuloho roku Okruzhnyy administratyvnyy sud Kyyeva vidkryv provadzhennya za pozovom Viktora Yanukovycha do Verkhovnoyi Rady u spori shchodo vyznannya faktu yoho samousunennya vid zdiysnennya konstytutsiynykh povnovazhenʹ prezydenta Ukrayiny.
-
Translation results
The District Administrative Court of Kyiv is currently closed.

Source: Deputy Chairman of the OPU Andriy Smirnov, who is responsible for the courts, in an interview with "Ukrainian Pravda", published on YouTube

Direct speech: "I can't explain more because we have martial law. Let's say this: there are certain organizational difficulties to start the work of this court in the short term."

Details: UP directly asked whether this court can recognize Viktor Yanukovych as a "legal president", because in December of last year he filed lawsuits against the VRU in the OASK.

Direct speech: "Due to unforeseen circumstances, the District Administrative Court of the city of Kyiv will not be able to make this decision. OASK is not working."

What preceded it: on December 30 of last year, the District Administrative Court of Kyiv opened proceedings on Viktor Yanukovych's claim to the Verkhovna Rada in the dispute regarding the recognition of the fact of his self-removal from exercising the constitutional powers of the President of Ukraine.
“Judge, if you saw what I saw, you would know why I can’t release them” - President Donald J. Trump to Andrew Napolitano, about the J.F.K. Files.
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#9
Of course it will be.   The Russo-Chinese economic alliance just do not take the Judeo Mafia-Western Corporate alliance seriously...Fuck Joe Biden and his Admin picks, and the unelected EU Commission.... Most westerners just have to turn on their Talmudvisions to be disgusted at what their WEF Mafia's Corporate Propaganda networks are trying to sell them ...and failing imo.  The Corporate Ruling Class Western Branch has no credibility left.  Let's just see if the Russian and Chinese leadership start calling out the Bauer-De Rothschild and Schwartz-de Soros Crime Family's and all the other little fake sycophantic  psychopaths in their orbit.

Then it's real class-revolution time

[Image: RqGn.gif]
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#10
@Treebeard  , I did get that you had mistakenly flipped east & west, but my comment was simply a challenge to always. It's a matter of timeline. Since Russia became Russia from a post Kievan Rus/proto Russian collection of principalities and Duchy's sometime about the 16th century (the first Russian Tsar was crowned in 1547), the area of the present day Donbas was annexed by Russia by expelling the Golden Horde from that territory.

My posts giving an overview of history of the region from 10th to 20th century is here;

https://www.beyond-the-fringe.com/showthread.php?tid=10779&page=26&highlight=fsu

It's interesting to see that some of the videos have since been removed by YT.   Eyeroll

... I just want to add that a big part of the reason I started researching the history of Ukraine was that I was curious to know when it initially became a country. I was quite surprised to discover that the answer I was searching for was 1991!


To get back to the topic at hand, here is a map that illustrates the lands annexed by Ukraine* that may be relevant again if this talk of resetting boundaries continue.

* I just want to note that use of the name Ukraine in the context of the map should be viewed in a post 1991 sense as at the time of the annexations the land in question was Russia or the Ukrainian S.S.R as a political subdivision of the Soviet Union depending on the date.

One more comment... the area noted as "Czechoslovak Ruthenia" also known as Transcarpathia and Carpathian Ruthenia has at least partial ties historically with Hungary. It is my understanding that Hungarian is still the primary language of some of the villages there...  1dunno1


[Image: Ukraine-growth-Wikipedia-Spiridon-Ion-Cepleanu.png]
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