A week from now, Russia will be 108,842 sq. km. larger.
#11
@=42 Yeah, but that's all Soviet mapmaking. The Soviets created Ukraine but never as a country, only an oblast.
They drew its border and their other borders and conquests during and after WW II based on their own prerogatives.
The Soviet era falls under the "unnatural borders" category.
“Judge, if you saw what I saw, you would know why I can’t release them” - President Donald J. Trump to Andrew Napolitano, about the J.F.K. Files.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Treebeard's post:
  • DeepSouthLady
Like Reply
#12
(09-21-2022, 02:41 PM)Treebeard Wrote: @=42 Yeah, but that's all Soviet mapmaking. The Soviets created Ukraine but never as a country, only an oblast.
They drew its border and their other borders and conquests during and after WW II based on their own prerogatives.
The Soviet era falls under the "unnatural borders" category.

I'm a bit confused by your comments above. I thought we had already established that we both have a compatible understanding of Ukraine historically as a geographic region, a Soviet Republic and more recently as a country. 

Realizing that the Map I posted had at least the potential to be suggestive that Ukraine has always been been Ukraine as many in the west believe, I tried and perhaps failed to clarify that distinction in the post. 

I am happy to continue to discuss, debate or learn more about the history of the region, but I was trying to get this thread back on topic which was the potential Russian annexation of the Donbas and other areas of Ukraine. There are several other Russia/Ukraine/FSU threads which are more fitting to continue general historical discussion if necessary.

I thought that the map would be a useful tool to identify the other regions that may be contended or attempts made to to reclaim them as to further the topic of discussion.

If you see any problems or inaccuracies with the map, please identify them specifically and I will happily research and discuss further.
[Image: rWS2czh.jpg]
[-] The following 1 user Likes =42's post:
  • DeepSouthLady
Like Reply
#13
(09-21-2022, 03:40 PM)=42 Wrote:
(09-21-2022, 02:41 PM)Treebeard Wrote: @=42 Yeah, but that's all Soviet mapmaking. The Soviets created Ukraine but never as a country, only an oblast.
They drew its border and their other borders and conquests during and after WW II based on their own prerogatives.
The Soviet era falls under the "unnatural borders" category.

I'm a bit confused by your comments above. I thought we had already established that we both have a compatible understanding of Ukraine historically as a geographic region, a Soviet Republic and more recently as a country. 

Realizing that the Map I posted had at least the potential to be suggestive that Ukraine has always been been Ukraine as many in the west believe, I tried and perhaps failed to clarify that distinction in the post. 

I am happy to continue to discuss, debate or learn more about the history of the region, but I was trying to get this thread back on topic which was the potential Russian annexation of the Donbas and other areas of Ukraine. There are several other Russia/Ukraine/FSU threads which are more fitting to continue general historical discussion if necessary.

I thought that the map would be a useful tool to identify the other regions that may be contended or attempts made to to reclaim them as to further the topic of discussion.

If you see any problems or inaccuracies with the map, please identify them specifically and I will happily research and discuss further.

Yeah, this is the problem:
"Realizing that the Map I posted had at least the potential to be suggestive that Ukraine has always been been Ukraine as many in the west believe"

and that's that. Really, out of all the Oblasts and Autonomous Oblasts, when the USSR disbanded, everything was chaotic. One of the worst mistakes was to allow the former Soviet Socialist Republics to maintain their borders as they were enforced, captured or cut by Soviet kommisars. This created vacuums and disputes we are still suffering from. Fighting over Ukraine borders would be akin to fighting for Tajikstan or Kyrgykstan borders, who cares? We should not except in the interest of peace and fairness, but alas the US and West have been doing the opposite since the end of WW II pretty much everywhere in the world.
“Judge, if you saw what I saw, you would know why I can’t release them” - President Donald J. Trump to Andrew Napolitano, about the J.F.K. Files.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Treebeard's post:
  • DeepSouthLady
Like Reply
#14
(09-21-2022, 03:55 PM)Treebeard Wrote:
(09-21-2022, 03:40 PM)=42 Wrote:
(09-21-2022, 02:41 PM)Treebeard Wrote: @=42 Yeah, but that's all Soviet mapmaking. The Soviets created Ukraine but never as a country, only an oblast.
They drew its border and their other borders and conquests during and after WW II based on their own prerogatives.
The Soviet era falls under the "unnatural borders" category.

I'm a bit confused by your comments above. I thought we had already established that we both have a compatible understanding of Ukraine historically as a geographic region, a Soviet Republic and more recently as a country. 

Realizing that the Map I posted had at least the potential to be suggestive that Ukraine has always been been Ukraine as many in the west believe, I tried and perhaps failed to clarify that distinction in the post. 

I am happy to continue to discuss, debate or learn more about the history of the region, but I was trying to get this thread back on topic which was the potential Russian annexation of the Donbas and other areas of Ukraine. There are several other Russia/Ukraine/FSU threads which are more fitting to continue general historical discussion if necessary.

I thought that the map would be a useful tool to identify the other regions that may be contended or attempts made to to reclaim them as to further the topic of discussion.

If you see any problems or inaccuracies with the map, please identify them specifically and I will happily research and discuss further.

Yeah, this is the problem:
"Realizing that the Map I posted had at least the potential to be suggestive that Ukraine has always been been Ukraine as many in the west believe"

and that's that. Really, out of all the Oblasts and Autonomous Oblasts, when the USSR disbanded, everything was chaotic. One of the worst mistakes was to allow the former Soviet Socialist Republics to maintain their borders as they were enforced, captured or cut by Soviet kommisars. This created vacuums and disputes we are still suffering from. Fighting over Ukraine borders would be akin to fighting for Tajikstan or Kyrgykstan borders, who cares? We should not except in the interest of peace and fairness, but alas the US and West have been doing the opposite since the end of WW II pretty much everywhere in the world.

Big can of worms there!

Fair to say that the actions of the west (TPTB) on a whole towards FSU countries has been telling of their intentions for the entire world. There are terms that they are insistent on imposing on everyone and the will of the people and their best interest is of not of concern to them!
[Image: rWS2czh.jpg]
[-] The following 2 users Like =42's post:
  • DeepSouthLady, Treebeard
Like Reply


Forum Jump: